MILITARY COLLECTOR GROUP POST, FEB.4/98 INDEX: ARMY VERSUS MARINE CORPS, DOCTRINAL DEBATES; MEMBER PROFILE; Ralph Hogan HUMOR; ********************************* ARMY VERSUS MARINE CORPS, DOCTRINAL DEBATES; >I've read in the past that the difference in pace between the Army and >Marines was due to doctrinal differences; the Army slower with more >artillery, bombing, etc., while the Marines were faster, more ' >aggressive'. I remember reading that some Army folks criticized the >Marines for their attitude towards the Army's doctrine. Question is: > >Was this mostly a doctrinal difference or were there real issues >that the Army failed to execute its own doctrine? There are considerable doctrinal differences...I can't comment on Saipan specifically, but the Army was better geared to longer duration, greater distance campaigns...they tended to want to soften, smash and exploit/pursue ....there is no exploitation/pursuit on an Island the size of Saipan. THe Army's view of Marine tactics is "3 yards in a Cloud of Blood" ...a not totally accurate description either. There is no way to out maneuver an enemy dug in on a small island ...it has to be done frontally at great cost...speed does help, if you can get things crumbling before you , as it demoralizes the enemy and may prevent him from getting local reinforcements in place. The Armies idea of maneuvering units out of position and "saving lives" worked in Europe...might have worked in China, but was useless and wasteful of time in the islands campaign. Incidently, as part of my C&GSC course (during more current times), I compared loss rates [Using Offical US Army Planning Tables] for a "Soviet style Breakthrough Attack" and a US Style Attack to breakthrough enemy lines...both over about 5 days. The US [Army] style sufferes fewer casualties on the first day or so, but over the period, it suffers more ! The Soviet style suffers 10-15% fewer casualties over the 5 days...but they are all front loaded, with lead battalions wiped out [ =84 70% casualties] and follow up units walking through... there is a similar relationship with Marine vs Army tactics on the Islands, where the Army methods actually cost more casualties if a quick end to the fighting was not reached. jconeil@primenet.com (Jim O'Neil) ---------------------------------------------------- The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis. from a post-war debriefing of a German General ---------------------------------------------------- Dennis: I tend to think that the difference of opinion between Smith and Smith had little to do with "doctrine differences". While the Saipan campaign was going on, there was also a like campaign going on on Guam. The forces on Guam also were a mix of USMC and an Army division. In this case, the Army performed well within the satisfaction of the overall Marine command, including "Howlin' Mad" Smith. Previous joint operations had also gone satisfactorily for all concerned. Remember that the tactical aspects of the Marine Amphibious Doctrine was being "perfected" at the same time as for the Army. I believe, therefore, that one cannot cite a Service doctrine difference as responsible for the rift between Smith and Smith. One also cannot really say that the Army's ETO performance based on mechanized warfare would have much of an affect on the pace of the Army's overall tactical doctrine in the Pacifac, which was based on Light Infantry, just as the Marine Corps doctrine was. The "overall differences" in tactics between the Corps and the Army in the Pacifac just aren't there. Where the problem was, seems to have been a personal difference in how to proceed. Smith (USMC) was audacious to the extreme and as intolerant to any perceived caution as he was to any difference of opinion. He was also given to assigning blame to others for any critisism of an operation under his command. We see this again at Iwo when he blamed the high cost on the Navy's perceived lack of adequate fire support. Smith (USA) was inexperienced and cautious. He also had a calm, studied, and deliberate command style which was the exact opposite of Smith (USMC). Sounds to me like a simple conclusion can be drawn here, and that people are trying to read way too much into what was a classic personality clash. Brian Scace ------------------------------------------------- ed) I tend to agree with Brians assessment. For further information on the subject, see; Military Collector Group Post, Dec.20/97 Evolution of Marine Corps Amphibious Doctrine; an Essay, by Brian Scace ********************************* MEMBER PROFILE; Ralph Hogan Ralph's BIO: I started dabling in electronics at an early age. I built my first tube SWL rx, a Knight-kit Star Roamer. I enjoyed SWL, but soon wanted to talk back to the exotic locales I was listening to. I became a Novice around 1971ish. I built my first TX, a DX-60B. The RX was a BC-348 w/dynamotor, which was later supplanted with a SX-117. A KWM-1 followed soon afterwards. My love of electronics lead me to graduate from Ga. Tech as an EE designing analog and digital telecommunication and data acquistion systems. I also own a small photography business on the side, so I keep very busy. I like land-mobile moto/ge commercial equipment, weened my teeth on old vibrator GE prog/preprog, BENDIX, LINK and Moto coffin box radios. My hamming interest spans low band FM to CW QRP HF operating and building repeaters. I've always been fascinated by 'green' box radios, especially the man-portable WWII and Vietnam era radios. These historical 'PRC' radios fall right in place with my lowband FM and QRP CW HF interest. I dont have a military background, however that hasn't stopped my great enthusiasm for it's equipment of all kinds. (Someday I'd like to have something green with wheels...) This group has helped me in many ways. For this I am very grateful and hope someday to repay the kindness of everyone so far. I'm not a fountain of militaria knowledge, I am always learning, but then again aren't we all? Its good to know I'm not the only afflicted person that gets excited when I see green, gray or black boxes. I appreciate the knowledge others have very patiently bestowed upon me. 73's to all Ralph Hogan WB4TUR ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Hogan, WB4TUR email: ralph.hogan@vmic.com 12/97 Interest: Portable/Manpack PRC FM and HF CW/SSB equipment Want List: GRC-109: R-1004, G-43 Generator, GRA-71 Code Burst Keyer PRC-74B: AC/DC PP-4514, CW-836 bag, AB-955 spring base PRC-9/10: AM-598 Amplifier/Pwr Sup GRC-106A: Depot Maint Manual TRC-77: Outer case, BB-447A Battery box, acces. SA-211: Manual, batt box for moto hf xscvr XTALS: Ham band FT243 type Manuals for TEK 547, TEK 465/475 o'scopes TEK TM500 series: RACK, PLUGINS and any manuals ********************************* HUMOR; IF 99.9% IS GOOD ENOUGH, THEN, Two million documents will be lost by the IRS this year. 811,000 faulty rolls of 35mm film will be loaded this year. 22,000 checks will be deducted from the wrong bank accounts in the next 60 minutes. 1,314 phone calls will be misplaced by telecommunication services every minute. 12 babies will be given to the wrong parents each day. Two plane landings daily at O'Hare International Airport in Chicago will be unsafe. 3,056 copies of tomorrow's Wall Street Journal will be missing one of the three sections. 18,322 pieces of mail will be mishandled in the next hour. 291 pacemaker operations will be performed incorrectly this year. 880,000 credit cards in circulation will turn out to have incorrect cardholder information on their magnetic strips. 20,000 incorrect drug prescriptions will be written in the next 12 months. 114,500 mismatched pairs of shoes will be shipped this year. 315 entries in Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language will turn out to be misspelled. 5,517,200 cases of soft drinks produced in the next 12 months will be flatter than a bad tire. ------------------------------------------------- An old man goes into the Social Security Office and fills out an application. Too old to have a birth certificate, he is asked to prove he is old enough. He opens his shirt and shows them the grey hair on his chest and they accept that as proof. He goes home to his wife, shows her the check, and explains to her what has happened. She replies, "Well get back down there, pull down your pants, and see if you can get disability!" ------------------------------------------------- An ambitious yuppie finally decided to take a vacation. He booked himself on a Caribbean cruise and proceeded to have the time of his life. ....till the boat sank. The man finds himself swept up on the shore of an island with no other people, no supplies, nothing. Only bananas and coconuts. After about four months pass, he's lying on the beach one day, when the most gorgeous woman he's ever seen rows up to him. In disbelief, he asks her: "Where did you come from? How did you get here?" "I rowed from the other side of the island," she replies, "I landed here several months ago when my cruise ship sank." "Amazing," he says, "You were really lucky to have a rowboat wash up with you." "Oh, this?" replies the woman. "I made the rowboat out of raw materials that I found on the island. The oars were whittled from Gumtree branches; I wove the bottom from Palm branches; and the sides and stern came from a Eucalyptus tree." "But-but, that's impossible," stutters the man, "you had no tools or hardware, how did you manage?" "Oh, that was no problem," replies the woman. "On the south side of this island there's a very unusual strata of alluvial rock exposed. I found that if I fired it to a certain temperature in my kiln, it melted into forgeable ductile iron. I used that to make tools, then used the tools to make the hardware." The guy is stunned. "Let's row over to my place, " she suggests. After a few minutes of rowing, she docks the boat at a small wharf. As the man looks toward shore, he nearly falls out of the boat in astonishment. Before him is a stone walk leading to an exquisite bungalow charmingly painted blue and white. While the woman ties up the rowboat with an expertly woven hemp rope, the man can only continue to stare at the cottage, dumbstruck. As they walk into the house, she says, casually, "It's not much really, but I call it home. Sit down, please. Would you like a drink?" "No, no thank you," he says, still dazed. "I can't take any more coconut juice." "Oh, it's not coconut juice," the woman replies. "I have a still. How about a Pina Colada?" Trying to hide his continuing amazement, the man accepts the cocktail, and they sit down together on her couch to talk. After they've exchanged their survival stories, the woman announces, "I'm going to slip into something more comfortable. Would you like to take a shower and shave? There's a razor upstairs in the cabinet in the bathroom." No longer questioning anything, the man goes into the bathroom. There in the cabinet is a razor with a carved bone handle. Two shells honed to a hollow ground edge are fastened to its end inside of a swivel mechanism. "This woman is amazing," he muses. "What's next?" When he returns to the living room, she greets him wearing nothing but vines-strategically positioned-and smelling faintly of gardenias. She beckons for him to sit down next to her. "Tell me," she begins, suggestively slithering closer to him, "we've been out here for a very long time. You've no doubt been lonely. There's something I'm sure you really feel like doing right now, something you've been longing for all these months? You know..." She stares into his eyes. He can't believe what he's hearing: "You mean--?", he begins, "-I can check my e-mail from here?" ------------------------------------------------- This guy is stranded on a desert island, all alone for ten years. One day, he sees a speck on the horizon. He thinks to himself, "It's not a ship." The speck gets a little closer and he thinks, "It's not a boat." The speck gets even closer and he thinks, "It's not a raft." Then out of the surf comes this gorgeous blond woman, wearing a wet suit and scuba gear. She comes up to the guy and says, "How long has it been since you've had a cigarette?" "Ten years!" he says. She reaches over and unzips a waterproof pocket on her left sleeve and pulls out a pack of fresh cigarettes. He takes one, lights it, takes a long drag, and says, "Man, oh man! Is that good!" Then she asked, "How long has it been since you've had a drink of whiskey?" He replies, "Ten year!" she reaches over, unzips her waterproof pocket on her right sleeve, pulls out a flask and gives it to him. He takes a long swig and says, "Wow, that's fantastic!" Then she starts unzipping this long zipper than runs down the front of her wet suit and she says to him, "And how long has it been since you've had some REAL fun?" And the man replies, "My God! Don't tell me that you have a set of golf clubs in there!" ********************************* EDITOR; Dennis Starks; MILITARY RADIO COLLECTOR/HISTORIAN military-radio-guy@juno.com