There may be a need to fight spot fires started by hot embers (firebrands) before there's an evacuation order or after the fire has passed (access?). Being a senior citizen with a bad back there's no way to carry heavy equipment to wrangle water fire hose.
A possible answer is to use a 4-wheel drive quad, like the Polaris Ranger EV. I have it on good authority that this particular vehicle it the most versatile in the hills. Models that use a centrifugal clutch, like on early go carts, are poor at climbing hills.
But what to carry since there's a weight limit?
At my house I've got a hydrant with plenty of pressure and flow, so for here don't need pump or tank if hose can be laid. A more expensive option would be to plumb property with 1-1/2" NH hose bibs so a 100' hose would get to the Ranger EV no matter where it was. A simpler and lower cost option would be to carry about 4 each 100' hoses which could be laid from either my hose bib (limited by the water meter to 15 GPM @ 100 PSI) or to the hydrant (very high GPM @ 100 PSI).
There are neighboring houses at higher elevations where the water pressure is more like 20 to 30 PSI so working from thier hydrents would require a booster pump. I used the word "booster" since the output pressure is the sum on the input pressure, say 20 PSI, and the pump differential pressure at a given flow rate, say 60 PSI, which would get you to 80 PSI.
The 500 pound weight limit for the Ranger EV bed translates to (500# / 8.3#/Gal) 60 Gallons max. But will be less because of weight of pump, hose, nozzle, tank &Etc.
I've watched a number of YouTube training videos on Wildland fire hose packs and hose lay technique. The all have some common features:
1. The path where the hose will go is thoroughly whetted before the hose is on the ground. Probably to prevent the hose catching fire.
2. An empty hose weighs a lot less than the same hose filled with water. So one man can pull an empty hose, but it may take two men to pull a hose full of water. The size makes a big difference here. 1" NPSH hose can be pulled by one man when full of water and is a standard for fighting wildland fires.
Fire Hose Filled with Water
Vol * 0.036
If the coefficient of friction with the ground is 1 then the force needed to pull a full hose would be the same as it's weight. The table above is for a single 100' hose.
In a real world situation there may be 5 or more hoses connected in series, so the total weight gets way to heavy for all the hose to be pulled. That's why hose is laid 100' at a time then filled with water. By inserting a Wye every now and then a tap provides for another hose to be added. Also a Gated "Y" adds a valve to a plain Nozzle. So by adding a plain Nozzle on the "Y" but not another hose you have a valved nozzle.
Normal fire engines are designed to fight structure fires where a lot of water (2-1/2" hose is the most common) is needed.
Wildland fires may involve large trees on fire, but the purpose of this vehicle is to put out smaller fires which if left on their own would light larger fuel sources.
This seems to be pointing to the use of either 1" or 3/4" garden hose. The 1" canvas type wildland fire type hose is much lighter and takes up much less space than the solid wall garden hose so may be the best choice.
Another option might be to tow a trailer fire skid, like the Multiquip WT5HP. There are many problems with that:
1. A Class 2 hitch is rated for 3, 500 pounds max (UHaul) and the trailer (1428 #) plus 4,381# of water (525 Gal2Pounds) = 5,809 pounds total.
2. The Ranger EV is rated for 1,500 lb Towing Capacity (Polaris).
1500 # is a lot more than the 1,000# load capacity of the Ranger EV, but after subtracting the trailer weight the gain may not be worth the disadvantage of a trailer v. the vehicle by itself.
Maybe removing the tilt bed and replacing it with a made to order fire skid would have more capacity?
2020 December 6 - on a short drive around my property it was discovered that the tires were very under inflated. Also discovered that some tree branches are low enough for the solar panel to get brushed. Those will need to be trimmed. Note I was thinking of changing the solar panel to allow tipping it up to face the sun, but that would make for a real problem hitting low branches. Instead need to look into ramps to tip the whole Ranger for better solar panel to Sun angles.
2021 July 1- It turns out a couple of weeks after I wrote the above paragraph there is enough sun to keep the battery fully charged even though I'm driving it a couple of times a week to move the garbage and recycle bins.
7 Dec: The left rear tire was very low (probably the one wheel that's driven) but the other tires were also at about 10 PSI. Markings say 32 PSI max, so I inflated to about 24 PSI.
Motorsports of Ukiah - the source of the Polaris Ranger EVs
The stock Ranger EV uses 8 each 6 V lead acid batteries for a 48 VDC system. These batteries add many hundreds of pounds to the vehicle weight.
This may be why the gasoline version of the Ranger can carry about 1,000 pounds in the bed compared to the 500 pounds for the EV version. Note the batteries are located below the seats as close to the ground as possible so add a lot to stability and low center of gravity which in turns translates to better hill climbing (See 3-wheel electric trike)
Group/series 27 batteries contain 214 Amp hours of charge (Powerstride), weigh 58 pounds each (pack 464 lbs). - This is consistent with the decrease of 500 lbs in the box capacity v. gas engine version.
The Powersonic PS-6000 (an equivalent battery) is rated 180 AH @ 36 Amps (5 hour rate) load, or 134 AH @ 134 Amps (1 hour rate) load.
Trojan L16H-AC battery has more capacity (saw it mentioned as an upgrade). They sell for about $550 each ( $4,400 for a pack). I think these are used in solar powered homes.
If Lithium batteries replaced the lead acid batteries, the weight limits should be substantially increased, but at what additional cost?YouTube: Linear Technology: Lead Acid Battery Balancer, LTC3305 - eBay lists the "Battery Equalizer HA02 Used For 48V Lead-acid Battery Balancer Charger Battery" for about $45. It would take two of them for the Ranger EV since it has 8 batteries.
Allied has LiFePO4 chemistry 48 Volt batteries that are about the same size as the 6 V lead acid batteries. This way you connect either 6 or 8 of the 48 V batteries in parallel. Their kit includes a State Of Charge meter and charger. By having each battery at 48 V no balancing is needed like when batteries are connected in series (the stock battery is series connected).
Periodically (every ?? hours or?? months) the batteries should be topped up with Distilled Water (Wiki). To make this easy my Ranger EV is fitted with the optional battery watering system. There's two filler tubes, one on each side, and a squeeze bulb pump. Push the Yellow button to clip/unclip the pump. See Fig 25 below. Note with the gallon water jugs sitting on the seat, above the batteries, you only need to use the hand pump a few times to get most of the air out of the tubing and after than siphon action (Wiki) will move the water to the batteries. tubing.
Polaris makes other Rangers. The 500 has a 32HP gas engine, the SP570 has a 44HP gas engine, the 1000 has a 61HP gas engine and the 1000XP has an 82HP gas engine. So when Polaris came out with an electric version I suspect they aimed for about 30HP in the electric motor. There's about 750 Watts input for 1HP and allowing for losses maybe 1kW input for 1HP at the shaft. So about a 30kW motor. The current will depend on the battery voltage:
Since 4/0 size cable (the largest commonly available) is rated around 400 to 500 A you can see that to get a true 30 HP will require a 60V battery pack. But, the EV model has a 48V pack which at 500A would provide 24,000kW or about 24HP. But because of the huge advantage of the electric motor in relation to torque at zero PRM that's plenty.
Delta-Q Technologies: QuiQ 1000W - YouTube:
Selecting a charge profile on the Delta-Q QuiQ Charger -
I bought this unit around Winter Solstice and so plugged it into the house 120 VAC to keep the battery charged. Only did that a couple of times. Since they the battery is always fully charged just from sitting in the Sun.
By adding a 48 Volt input inverter the batteries in the Ranger EV can be used for applications where a generator would otherwise be needed.
Sensata Technologies SM4448PAE 4,400 Watt Pure Sine Inverter - 120/240 VAC 60 Hz single phase output Also see my Generator page UPS section.
This is twice the power of the Honda 2200 Watt generator (Generators). But it's a self powered generator in the sense you can drive it to where you need the power.
1HP is 746 Watts. So 35 HP = 26110 Watts. Current at 48 V is 26110/48 = 543 Amps. Something looks wrong! (See Battery Design above) Maybe the Electronic Speed Controller (Wiki: ESC) outputs a higher voltage and so less current is needed?
Silver Wolf Motors makes a conversion kit for Golf Carts that replaces their DC or AC induction motor with a BLDC motor. It offers more range (higher efficiency), less motor weight and works on 48 to 72 VDC systems. I found them from their YouTube channel where they were promoting their 4WD kit to upgrade 2WD Golf Carts to 4WD.
Club Car (known for Golf Carts) also makes an UTV similar to the Polaris Ranger EV.
Their 500 model has a 48 VDC system & 20 HP motor. Maybe the Polaris EV motor is closer to 20 HP?
Golf Cart (Wiki) electric motors tent to be either 36V or 48V, so I suspect this is a 48V golf cart motor.video on stall torque on my Testing DC Motors web page.
2429153 Centrifugal clutch, Charles D Ammon, Raymond M Snyder, Fitchie Guy, 1947-10-14, -
2556512 Variable ratio drive mechanism, Charles D Ammon, Cushman Motor Works, 1951-06-12, - uses a V-belt (Wiki) & variable diameter pulley. The motor pulley had an automatic centrifugal clutch so at idle you did not need to engage a clutch - Cushman (Wiki) made a number of vehicles that used this v-belt pulley system.
2869919 Utility bodies for vehicles and tail gates therefor, Cushman Motor Works, 1959-01-20, - 3-wheel golf cart
This is very different than gas or diesel engines where the torque varies with the RPM and for these there's zero torque at zero RPM. So, when starting from a stop going up hill with a gas or diesel vehicle you need to do some fancy brake, clutch and gas pedal work. This would be easy if you have three legs, but for those of us with only two feet it requires some dexterity. With the DC motor there is no clutch, so it's very easy because you can develop any torque the motor can deliver at zero RPM.
The problem with the Ranger EV is that you can not use the gas and parking brake at the same time. This prevents you from driving off with the parking brake on.
So if stopped on a hill you need to apply the foot brake and then use the gas pedal to overcome the foot brake.
Probably Borg Warner Gen4 Size 2/4/6 - sales brochure - Renault City Car (Sevcon 48V Gen4 motor controller) - "Regenerative braking allowing reduced battery power consumption"
Battery Power Gauge - Smartview LCD Display : Battery state of charge (10 bars) & run time in house (probably the Polaris gauge), (CAN 2.0B passive up to 500k).(Wiki: CAN bus)
Note the Ranger EV has three Drive Modes (Owner's manual pg 10 Features and Controls):
Increased battery usage
Increased battery usage
Note 1: The owner's manual says "Min", but if you test it there is none in "M" range. i.e. to get maximum range there's no regenerativebraking.
L (Low, has maximum torque and regenerative braking. lowest range), M (Max Range [not medium] has NO regenerative braking), H (High, has light torque regenerative braking, medium range)
The All Wheel Drive (AWD) switch has three positions:
All wheel drive
Front wheels drive if rear wheels slipping
wheel scrub & hard steering
very difficult situations only
Rear Wheel drive
wheel scrub when cornering
ponly if drive wheel spins
One rear wheel drive
Use most of the time
Minimum traction & tire wear
The solar panel will charge the battery, not just keep it from going flat as a lead acid will do if left by itself. The solar panel is way too small to power the vehicle, but if use is infrequent, like driving a couple of miles to get the mail on a daily basis, then the solar panel probably will be enough. The rate of charge can be greatly improved by aiming the panel at the sun. That might be done just be parking the Ranger EV on a slope or by the hardware that attaches it to the Ranger.
My friend has a single 200 W panel.My unit has three Siemens 75W panels.
He lives on a hill top so can park with a great south exposure so gets charging sun all day.
I live in a forest/jungle and so need to find a spot where I will get some sun. As I write this it's a little over a week from winter solstice so the sun is low in the sky. Need to find a way to get more solar power into the batteries.
Vo=22V (Vo max: 66V), Is=4.8A
Rated 17V @ 4.4A = 74.8W per panel.
"These (SP75) solar panels are factory configured for 12V operation but may be field configured for 6V." Now to learn how. At 6V they would be a good match to the GVB-8 charge controller.
2020 Dec 16 - It turns out that the SP75 panels can NOT be changed to 6 Volts in the field.
BUT . . the three "12 Volt" panels can be connected in parallel and power the GVB-8 that way. This works because the current out of a solar panel is proportional to the light falling on it. So each panel will supply current to the charge controller.
Radiant Solar Technology, Inc. - the source of the solar panels.Genasun GVB-8-WP (Boost) MPPT unit rated for 8 Amps.
Asking Sun Forge LLC about this controller and the Solaria PowerXT-400R-PM panel:
"The two input parameters for that charge controller are:
1) The PV input Voltage at maximum power (Vmp) needs to be under 43.0V
2) The PV input Current at maximum power (Imp) needs to be under 9.0A.
As you mentioned, the STC rated Vmp on the Solaria PowerXT®-400R-PM panel (42.4V) is within specs, thought the STC rated Imp (9.4A) is slightly over.
Although I cannot directly espouse any configuration which exceeds our recommendations, given your latitude and the fact that the panel's NOCT rated Imp is 7.5A, you will likely not have any issues, especially when flat mounted. "
Note the Vmp (42.4V) and Imp (9.4A) are at 1000W/sq m. At 800W/sq m they are 40.0V and 7.59A. I've learned that the solar flux around me is near 800 W/sq m most of the time or less.
My Ranger has the Schneider Electric - C40 PWM charge controller rated for 40 Amps (60A ?) panel current.
Xantrex - C40 PWM Controller - The CM/R is a remote meter that can display: Array/Load Current, Battery Voltage, Resettable Amp hours, Total Amp hours.
The front panel also has a decoeder for the LED. Count the number of blinks in a group.
1 Green: (probably not charging) >3V below the bulk V
2 Green: charging and between 1.5 & 3V below bulk V
3 Green: charging and between 1 & 2V below bulk V
4 Green: charging and between 0.5 & 1V below bulk V
5 Green: at bulk voltage
Solid Green: Floating
MPPT v. PWM Charge Controllers
Pulse Width Modulation
These drop the panel voltage by turning on and off the panel so that the percent of on time is the desired output voltage as a percent of the panel voltage. It's a way to drop the voltage to whatever is desired for the battery, BUT the current is the same as supplied by the panel. In this case assume a sunny summer day. Each panel can deliver 4.4 A at 17 V so the array of three panels delivers 51 Volts at 4.4 Amps, but the battery needs 41 Volts so the battery gets 41 V @ 4.4 A or 180 Watts.
Maximum Power Point Tracking
The operating point is moved to maximize the power from the panel and the voltage is dropped and the current to the battery increased so in the example above:
3 * 17 V @ 4.4 A = 224.4 W. Battery voltage 41, current = 224.4W/41 = 5.5 Amps.
So the full 225 Watts is delivered to the battery instead of 180 Watts, 125% more power.
There is also a battery temperature sensor (BTS).
Best guess at internal settings: Charge Control, 48V battery, Manual Equalization, Bulk charge V? (between 52 & 60, default 59.2), Float charge V? (between 50 & 58, default 54.0), Low V reconnect (between 48 & 56, default 55.2), Low V disconnect (between 42 & 50, default 46.0).
In 48V battery configuration, panel Vmax: 125 V, Panel Imax: 40 Amps,
An add-on might be a place for an EMT Backboard stretcher like used for rescuing people. These are 72.75" x 17.75" x 2.5. A hose tray could be made to fit the same mounting space as the EMT Backboard.
The hose tray could be pre-loaded with a lot of 1" wildland fire hose, some nozzles and related tools and adapters.
Superwinch model: UT3000
40' of 3/16" wire rope with the ability to power load in and out. There's also a manual spool unlock to pull out the cable & Hook.
It's recommended to not attach the hook to the wire rope since that may damage the wire rope.
So a recovery tree strap should be used with a Shackle.
Ordered from eBay: "BBG4x4 Recovery Tow Strap Recovery Kit (Strap 30 ft + Hitch Receiver + Shackle)" for under $100. Includes: 3" x 30' strap, 3/4" D-Ring shackle, 2" receiver with 5/8" shackle & bag.
Will also be ordering some straps, shackles and a split snatch block to be used for the process of felling trees. See Cars\Live Steam\Murray Brothers Yarder - Donkey for ways the Ranger EV can be used for logging.
Victron Energy Smart 500 Amp shunt looks interesting, but getting a dedicated display costs twice ($250) as much as the smart shunt ($100).
There are no name DC Multifunction Battery Meters with Shunt on eBay for under $20 that include a LCD display. The "Renogy" brand "500A Battery Monitor With Shunt" (manual.pdf) is under $100.
Fig 3 Note the US 115 VAC plug appears as if it was not ever used. The solar panel charges the battery. This works because of light use. This plug is not supposed to be used like this. That's to say the hood should be opened when the AC charger is in use to allow cooling air to circulate.
Steering Wheel tilt is adjustable.
Fig 5 Genasun GVB-8-WP (Boost)
This model specifically for this application (or gold cart).
Fig 6 Yellow box is AC line charger.
Fig 7 Built-in 48V Charger
Output: 48V DC 18 Amps (864 Watts)
Battery: 24 Cell (48VDC) 50 to 360 Ah
Charge time depends on battery in range 3 to 20 hours.
Fig 9 There are two upper shock anchor locations.
Fig 10 Cansporter.com -
7217078 Waste receptacle transporter See Fig 6 & 7
Fig 11 MacPherson Strut (Wiki) Front Suspension
Fig 12 Fimco Ind - 25 Gal Spot Sprayer
60 PSI, 2.4 GPM 12 VDC pump
Fig 1 There are 3 solar panels.
Only one location for upper shock anchor point.
Fig 4 Steering wheel tilt is not adjustable.
Fig 5 There are 3 solar panels.
Fig 6 Moving gray and blue cans
Fig 8 After cleaning solar panels.
Fig 12 Looks like the Fimco Ind - 25 Gal Spot Sprayer
60 PSI, 2.4 GPM 12 VDC pump in Fig 12 above
Fig 13 2020-Dec-10 near Solstice (Wiki) = low sun angle
State of charge at one tick below 100%.
Let's see if it will charge.
Need to make some measurements to see if solar panel is level when road is level.
Fig 14 Siemens 75W, Vo=22V, Is=4.8A
Rated 17V @ 4.4A = 74.8W
Fig 15 It was in the sun an hour ago, but now shade.
In 1-wheel drive pushes blocks, in 4-wheel climbs them.
Since panel wiring is at back the front could be tipped up.
Fig 16 Under the hood. Extension cord connected.
FIg 17 The top center white Battery icon is blinking, even when the key switch is OFF.
Fig 19 Superwinch UT3000
Fig 20 In order to unload a can the lever needs to be
in the locked position as shown here.
Fig 21 Passenger side batteries and motor controller in center.
Fig 22 Added Slow Moving Vehicle Triangle
Fig 23 Fig 24 me and garbage bins
Fig 25 Watering Batteries
Fig 26 Rear 12V winch connector, 1-5/16" wide
Anderson Power Products SB 50
Fig 27 48V Battery Connector 2-1/8" wide
External Inverter or external charger
Anderson Power Products SB 175
Fig 28 Front Winch 12 V connector
Anderson Power Products SB 50
Fig 129 Rear 12V Winch connector w/o cap
Anderson Power Products SB 50
Fig 130 Inflating Tires (17 PSI)
Riobi air compressor -
also 1 Gal water on each side for batteries
Fig 132 Two bar lengths on Waste bins.
Honda WH15 which weighs 50 pounds. 98 GPM max, 57 PSI max, 1.5" NPT input and output. (but is far inferior to the WH20).
The Honda WH20 water pump weighs 52 pounds. 132 GPM max, 61 PSI max, 2" NPT input and output. Has an excellent reputation.
500 # bed weight limit - 50 # for the pump leaves 450 # max for water, or 54 Gallons of water, so probably a 50 Gal tank and about 32 # for the rest.
An alternate with a capacity between the Honda WH15/20 and the Fimco pisser pump might make sense? But I haven't found it yet.
There are 230 VAC 1/2 HP pumps that are near what the water meter supplies, i.e. 25 GPH @ 100 PSI, but the DC powered water pumps are similar to the one on the Fimco 25 Gal setup.
Here's a 48 V BLDC motor rated 600W, 1800 RPM that draws just under 14 Amps. it sells for under $300 at one each.
Volcano Electric VOL-BL0.6C48
Another option is a water pump driven by a 115/230 VAC motor which in turn is driven by a 48 Volt inverter. (see Inverter above).
Dayton 4RU76: 1/2HP, 120/240VAC, 10A/5A, 125 PSI max - Need AC inverter to use. $432
Note water meter delivers: 25 GPM @ 110 PSI gravity feed.
Note motor draws 1200 watts and delivers only 375 Watts, 25% efficiency. A BLDC motor would be much better.
The Polaris EV has a max load rating for the pickup bed of 1,000 pounds.WaterAx makes Skids that combine a tank and pump designed for ATVs.
3/4"x50' booster hose on Hannay HAN-F1816-17-18LT MANUAL HAND CRANK reel.
Note that in addition to the skid you need to carry hoses, nozzles, fittings, wrenches, adapters, clamps, tools &Etc.
Smokey Pack Deployment: Away from the Engine - It looks like the 1" pack was never used, only the Smokey Pack, hence the title.
Hose Packs (Wiki) are used to get hose where a truck can not go.
Gansner Pack (old) & Smokey Pack (new): YouTube:
Wildfire Suppression Hose Packs, Andrew H. Bernard, Oct 15, 2001 -
Wildland hose packs include:
Gansner hose lay, Jarbo supply line, Cleveland hoselay - Capital Hose Pack (Ambry) - hose formed in spiral about 3' diameter then flattened and folded in half. Straps tie together and include shoulder harness. Hose is visible when carried, i.e. not in a bag.
Progressive Hose Lays & Interagency Adaptability - May 2020
Adapter: Female 1-1/2" NH to Male 1" NPSH ("Iron Pipe")
Female 1-1/2" NH to Male 1" NH
But also contains adapters for both ends of the 1" hose to use either thread. So: the same 1-1/2" to 1" adapter as in the Sansner pack, plus a couple of M-F adapters for the male end of the hose.
Culver City starts out with a 1-3/4" hose form the traverse hose compartment which has a gated Wye with the nozzle on one of the outputs. Cleaver using the gated Wye as the valve for the nozzle.
- Progressive Hose Lay and Packing the Modified Gasner Pack - 1" x 100', 1-1/2" x 100', Gated Wye, 1-1/2" to 1" reducer, Nozzle, Modified Gasner Pack
Smokey Pack, aka Lake George pack, and aka Travis pack. YouTube:
Smokey Pack - Starts off using Booster Hose.
These are not needed since the Ranger EV will be carrying the hose. Although they could be used to allow moving the hose on foot.
In most cases the starting hose is connected to the fire engine which has a water tank and pump so can supply water quickly. There needs to be a plan how water will be supplied in the long run.
Wildland or 1" Pack
While not specified I expect this is NPSH threads.
2 each 1" x 100' single wall wildland fire hoses, each with a combination nozzle.
1-1/2" input x dual 1" output Wye
1-1/2" input x 1-1/2" output & 1" output Wye (to connect to the prior 1-1/2" main line.
1 each 1-1/2" x 100' single wall wildland fire hose
1 each 1" x 100 single wall wildland fire hose with combination nozzle
Forestry Hose Clamp "Strangler",
Dirt Trax Test Rides 2010 Polaris Ranger EV, Jul 6, 2010 - based on scaled down (?) Ranger 400
ATV Television - 2011 Polaris Ranger EV Test, Aug 12, 2010 -
RANGER EV en franchissement - Going in some difficult terrain
Solar charging the Polaris Ranger EV - has 6 house roof 255W panels, 120V 1530W system or 4 panel system on Ranger EV roof.Polaris Off Road - Ranger - Ranger EV -
90 Hour Maintenance Check, 2010 Polaris Ranger EV 4x4 AWD -
Extreme Metal Products: EMP:Mid Size Tonneau;
Polaris Ranger Tonneau Cover/Polaris Ranger bed Cover (for 60" full size bed), 16.5" tall inside (4" higher than stock bed).
Home Fire Protection
Kestrel 5500FW Fire Weather Meter
AddMotor Motan M360 Electric Trike - Hill climbing depends on all wheel drive
Smith Indian 5 Gallon Backpack Fire Pump - very good at conserving water, but the filled tank weighs 52 pounds, more than I want to carry, hence installed on hand truck. Could also have a custom bracket for installation on the Ranger EV. An alternate would be to add a fitting to the tank so the only the Smith Indian hose and hand pump were on the ATV. Each way has it's advantages.
Polaris on line parts catalog - the Ranger Product Line = RGR
Electrical - battery 4014126, US12VXC; Motor 40144867,
References, Tool Kit & Owner's manuals
Branson Off Grid - YouTube: Ranger EV -
Hydrant2Nozzle - Hose Dreams - Nozzle Dreams -
PRC68, Alphanumeric Index of Web pages, Contact, Products for Sale
Page Created 2020 Nov 28.